Curse

Missing HB · Aug 09, 2011, 07:01 AM // 07:01

I think it's quite obvious that playing melee in Jade Quarry is pretty useless :
- shrines have antimelee and NPC's usually kill you even before you get on it
- turtles/juggernaut use a skill ( which is quite bugged considering it's randomly since last update) to teleport you away
- cap times compared to skills recapping shrines in 3 sec

My solution would be more about " Bug Fixes" considering that's the only thing they seem to do :

- Make turtles/Juggernaut use a skill on any target in range, whether it's melee or ranger damage. For example, something like : "Target is kded for 3 sec and receive 100 damage" with a recharge of 7 sec could be an option. That skill would obviously have no cast time.

- Split NPC's on shrines from start. It's way too easy to cap shrines by using 1-2 ranged skills without even getting hit.

Waiting your comments..

Swingline · Aug 09, 2011, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I think it's quite obvious that playing melee in Jade Quarry is pretty useless :
- shrines have antimelee and NPC's usually kill you even before you get on it
- turtles/juggernaut use a skill ( which is quite bugged considering it's randomly since last update) to teleport you away
- cap times compared to skills recapping shrines in 3 sec

My solution would be more about " Bug Fixes" considering that's the only thing they seem to do :

- Make turtles/Juggernaut use a skill on any target in range, whether it's melee or ranger damage. For example, something like : "Target is kded for 3 sec and receive 100 damage" with a recharge of 7 sec could be an option. That skill would obviously have no cast time.

- Split NPC's on shrines from start. It's way too easy to cap shrines by using 1-2 ranged skills without even getting hit.

Waiting your comments..

I havent noticed a bug when playing my sin. I only get ported when I attack from the front or side.

I see dervs just walk into shrines and rape the npcs but hey they are dervs lol. Sins are more or less used to gank potential enemy shrine cappers and finish off shrines. Warriors on the other hand are quite underpowered in this game format. These are the main focuses for melee along with harassing enemy carries.

hankey · Aug 09, 2011, 08:53 AM // 08:53

meh when i roll the dervish capping far shot shrines is fairly easy, quarrys not so much but thats not a big concern of mine. what i really hate is the inability to attack immidiately after a shrine is capped (not sure if ur referring to this particular problem), when u get 'cant use this skill (monster whatever)'. THAT is frustrating but i guess it is to give players a chance to defend it. other than that im with swingline on melee focuses in jq nad dont really have a problem with the turtle/jug defense system. melee in jq is not at all useless imo on more than one occasion iv had teams of 5 melees and won fairly easily, but that also depends on how bad of a team you're opposing

Jeydra · Aug 09, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Most people who complain about melee players in JQ play builds that are vulnerable to good melee ...

drkn · Aug 09, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Pure wars suck in JQ, that's true. But apart of that...
Dervs are capping machines, pretty invulnerable unless get severely stripped or get serious melee hate from players. Sins are the best at, well, sinning, not capping, but ganking opponents' carriers and monks is a viable role to play, given you do it right.
I perceive it as an issue similar to 'why monk is better at healing than a mesmer' - every class has its niche, its role to play, and trying to utilize another one, especially in PvP, won't, and shouldn't, work.
Well, everyone can do something in JQ except for paragons, but that's totally another thing.

Our Virus · Aug 10, 2011, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I see ALOT of 100b wars cap shrines pretty fast. And I'm pretty sure someone can make a creative earth shaker KD chain to keep all the shrine npc down until he kills them.

Swingline · Aug 10, 2011, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Those 2 war elites have hit my mind in the past for jq but I never see them. The wars in jq are either trying to gank people or cap shrines and fail horribly. If I were playing one I would go ES and cap shrines but any other build seems less likely besides 100b. ES could cap quarrys but someone else would have to go in first to take the heat from the anti melee.

hankey · Aug 10, 2011, 08:53 AM // 08:53

i've seen very few 100bs in jq and they actually sound like a good idea but yeah they cant cap a quarry alone, a clumsiness and a kd and it might be game over. think a good melee option in the build is a fast snare for those damned bombers and westrels to take them out before arriving within quarry range.

drkn · Aug 10, 2011, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Still, wars can kill carriers or enemy monks, either by going fully /A with daggers, or by hammering the shit out of monks (especially the healing/protting type) and mesmers, utilizing some shadow step, thus letting bombers/RoJers/mesmers do their job at capping more effectively. In the end, they could even serve as a meatshield to soak up the first bits of damage so that RoJ monk behind may cap the shrine and survive more easily, becoming actual tanks - but then again, that'd require some intelligent communication between players in JQ, and, well, it's not that common there.
Wars are still in a better situation than paragons - sure, they can Fall Back and Make Haste their carriers or cappers, but that's pretty much everything.

Whirl E Vic · Aug 10, 2011, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Vow of Silence is hilarious for capping shrines and annoying all of the casters.

But I kinda agree with previous- wars don't really have a similar alternative.

Also, if you hit the juggernaut in the back in melee it often won't use the tele-kd skill, since you aren't blocking it. so you could conceivably be a carrier killer if you chose that role.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

JQ matches aren't just capping shrines. You can defend shrines, kill carriers, run carriers and finally kill opposing players. Melee excels at the last one.

Some people might argue that killing opposing players is a waste of time. Maybe, but these same people tend to play defenseless casters who will die to a good melee. Think about it. You have to run Superior runes (or your RoJ / Chaos Storm etc won't cap shrines), and that immediately makes you vulnerable to melee, especially if they have snare / KD. How can you cap a shrine if you can never make it there? How will you deal with an Assassin with Leaping Mantis Sting who's camping just outside the portal, other than not go out that portal?

N/A bombers are some of the most common and most metagamed against builds in the game, but they WILL die to a Wastrel's Sin. In fact, the same applies to just about ever meta build out there. I believe melee is underrated, and exert their influence in a game in their own way.

Missing HB · Aug 10, 2011, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Yet, you know as me that the team with most melee usually lose. Why? Because people can recap shrines from 2 sides : the down one and the up one, without even getting hit..

Let's say the problem is that a team with few melee chars cannot win once opponents( assuming they got more cappers) have all shrines... which happens always after 2-3mn

drkn · Aug 10, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Actually, i have no problems in killing sins, wars, dervs or rangers 1v1 with my monk in JQ. I use a Mo/Me variant of RoJ with my own tweaks, and unless i'm really unlucky and get interrupted/knocked down at least twice in a row, it's the physicals who flee or die, not me with 16 in smiting.
The real problem with people fighting other players in JQ is their targets. As long as they camp near a quarry, prioritizing monks, then mesmers and necros, over anything else - it's fine. In the meantime, they should harass enemy carriers. But a warrior bashing heads with another war or derv is probably the worst thing you can see in JQ, maybe except most trappers.
More so, with necro bomber being the only exception, it's much much better to interrupt and/or disable RoJ monks / Chaos Storm mesmers than actually kill them, letting them regain energy, health and mobility. Said Mo/Me has three signets, one of which is Signet of Distraction, effectively rendering any other RoJ monk useless for additional 12s. It's usually enough time to just wand him down.

Jarin · Aug 10, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I've seen a warrior (100b I think), and with /N he brought Well of Suffering. After he took out the middle quarry npc, he cast it, and, even though he died, he capped the shrine everytime.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Why wouldn't good melee knock you down at least twice in a row?

Also, ever been in matches where your N/A bombers and Mesmer Chaos Storm nukers and RoJ Monks all fail to cap a shrine because it's defended by one WoH Monk and one LS Monk? Suddenly all those spells that kill NPCs fast are utterly ineffective. How are you going to take the shrine now? Maybe a team with all melee characters isn't going to win, but then neither is a team with all cappers.

drkn · Aug 10, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Why wouldn't good melee knock you down at least twice in a row?

For instance, cause i knock him down first, or interrupt him, or dismiss Cripple from myself making some builds useless in terms of knocking down any further. On rare occassions, i do get knocked down in a row, being completely helpless, but i'm quite a good monk, in JQ at least, and my build has some anti-physical goodies

I sure been to matches like that. If the opponents use two monks to keep a quarry up, they're wasting resources - i usually let them keep their Purple and cap everything else, if there are two WoH (or other heal/prot) monks at one spot.
If there's only one heal/prot monk, usually double RoJ (Arcane Echo > Fall Back, always) and a well-timed interrupt do the trick. Yeah, playing a mesmer for three years pays off in terms of rupting WoH.

Prestige · Aug 10, 2011, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Assassins are the 1 vs 1 type of class, they'll go off and kill Alone targets (or sometimes more).

Dervishs, just go and kill mobs (Which explains they're capping ability).

Warriors are easily killed by almost everything, you can't expect to own anything with them.

While I only play Mesmers in Jade Quarry, In my opinion : They are one of the best at capping,killing and defending.

Missing HB · Aug 10, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why wouldn't good melee knock you down at least twice in a row?

Also, ever been in matches where your N/A bombers and Mesmer Chaos Storm nukers and RoJ Monks all fail to cap a shrine because it's defended by one WoH Monk and one LS Monk? Suddenly all those spells that kill NPCs fast are utterly ineffective. How are you going to take the shrine now?

2-Maybe a team with all melee characters isn't going to win, but then neither is a team with all cappers.

And yet a melee isn't going to kill a shrine with a monk standing on it neither...

2- Then how easy is it to split on other shrines ?? You obviously really should play tactic formats ....

Swingline · Aug 10, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prestige

Assassins are the 1 vs 1 type of class, they'll go off and kill Alone targets (or sometimes more).

Dervishs, just go and kill mobs (Which explains they're capping ability).

Warriors are easily killed by almost everything, you can't expect to own anything with them.

While I only play Mesmers in Jade Quarry, In my opinion : They are one of the best at capping,killing and defending.

mostly because of wastrels, chaos storm and PI but for defending an Air of Enchantment prot monk has proven to be one of the best, better than mesmers

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2011, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

For instance, cause i knock him down first, or interrupt him, or dismiss Cripple from myself making some builds useless in terms of knocking down any further. On rare occassions, i do get knocked down in a row, being completely helpless, but i'm quite a good monk, in JQ at least, and my build has some anti-physical goodies

I sure been to matches like that. If the opponents use two monks to keep a quarry up, they're wasting resources - i usually let them keep their Purple and cap everything else, if there are two WoH (or other heal/prot) monks at one spot.
If there's only one heal/prot monk, usually double RoJ (Arcane Echo > Fall Back, always) and a well-timed interrupt do the trick. Yeah, playing a mesmer for three years pays off in terms of rupting WoH.

Can't be done; Wastrel's knocks you down first and then Horns of the Ox follows before you can do anything else. Bane Signet will not hit good melee before they KD you, and Leaping Mantis Sting should lead to Trampling Ox before you can remove Cripple (unless you start casting Smite Condi before you are crippled, in which case plus point to you for being so alert).

Obviously if the two Monks are good they won't stay at purple if there's no one threatening the shrine right? If you moved to other shrines too they have achieved something. While you are moving around you are vulnerable to getting snared, getting followed by a Monk and (oh the irony) enemy melee. As for interrupting WoH, you place a lot of confidence on doing something you only have a small window to do (he can cast WoH while you're casting RoJ). Interrupt on WoH will not kill the NPC either if he has other heals / prots. Besides, he can get a HCT and then you'll be staring at the shrine for 20s wondering how you're going to cap it.

A single melee is not going to kill two WoH Monks, but it will be a big asset in taking down one Monk - something none of the meta bars can easily do. Teams with melee tend to lose more than teams without simply because there are so many bad melee in JQ, not to mention the recent surge of A/Me bots with Shadow Refuge and Energy Tap.